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Post by cgriff on Jun 11, 2010 12:00:21 GMT -5
We submitted a collaborative grant for student training. Good grades on the grant but we didn't get it and the suggestion was that the collaboration was the problem and if we submitted the grant as the sole institution it would be successful. So the next year we did that, but the grant program changed slightly. We received several horrible reviews for essentially the same proposals.
So one problem is on resubmissions. If you answer the criticisms received for the previous grant, the new panel should take that into consideration.
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Post by Aureliano Buendia on Jun 12, 2010 11:48:48 GMT -5
Yes, I've had that experience as well. When I answer the criticisms of a previous panel, I get docked in two ways, either in absolutely new ways that weren't mentioned the previous time, or my changes made in response to the previous panel are themselves considered problematic.
And what does one do when this happens? Nothing. There is no appeals process, no one to take responsibility for the inconsistency, or anything else. You just stick it out and hope for better LUCK the next time.
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Post by anon on Jun 12, 2010 12:26:44 GMT -5
Yes, the dynamic nature of panels and reviewers does mean that you will often get whacked on a revision for things nobody had before. But I prefer this system to one where we have the exact same panels for years on end.
And I think you need to stop saying there is no appeal process. It is in the GPG - just RTFM.
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Post by retired observer on Jun 14, 2010 12:22:40 GMT -5
1. Unlike NIH, which has a formal resubmission process, NSF considers each new submission as a separate proposal. The NSF computer does not link the new submission to any prior related proposal. A program director may not even realize that it is a revised version of a previously declined proposal (although a GOOD program director takes the trouble to look it up and find out).
2. Who is responsible for the proposed work, the proposer or the reviewers? Just because reviewers write criticisms or suggestions doesn't necessarily mean those suggestions should be slavishly followed. Are they appropriate criticisms? Are they valid? Does it make sense for you, the proposer, to adopt those suggestions and incorporate them into the project, or NOT ?? Those are decisions that the proposer must make. Revising a proposal merely to fit the reviewers' comments is not good science; in fact, it's a dumb thing to do.
3. Unlike at NIH, where study sections are composed of by-and-large the same set of reviewers who only "turn over" at a 25%-per-year rate, NSF program officers may use either a partially overlapping or even an entirely different set of reviewers than the ones who saw an earlier version of the proposal. In part, that's because a GOOD program director wants to avoid the kind of situation where a revised version makes a reviewer so happy because his or her specific suggestion was incorporated into the proposal that the reviewer now thinks it's "excellent" simply because his or her own ideas are now in the proposal. That kind of situation, by the way, happens a lot. Scientists have egos!
4 -- also, it is important to keep in mind that in most cases an individual reviewer's review is subjective. Any one reviewer has a particular background, training, specialization, and "favorite topics" and favorite ways of approaching problems, and that background invariably influences the way the reviewer regards the project. Any three reviewers might have significant differences in their backgrounds and ways of thinking that would lead them to see the project differently. That's human nature, and science is human. The task of the Program Director is to figure out, based on all this subjective reviewer feedback, which projects are the best ones to recommend for funding. The Program Director, too, is human (duh); but in my experience the vast majority of PDs at NSF really try very hard to weigh and balance a lot of things appropriately and fairly (and in the best interests of the taxpayers, to whom the PDs are ultimately responsible) to come up with funding recommendations.
In my humble opinion, spending taxpayer money on a project JUST BECAUSE the proposer has responded mechanically to prior reviewer comments is not in the long term best interests of the taxpayers.
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